Posts by Sea Breeze

11

The Coming Global Salvation - (Not Universalism)

by Sea Breeze in

the overwhelming majority of the early church leaders (fathers) were premillennial and believed in a literal 1000 yr. kingdom.

today, 2/3 of christians are amillennial.

i do not want to imply that amilennialists, are not christian.

Sea Breeze

there are various legends around the year 1000AD of mass conversions and subsequent “great disappointments”.

@AnonyMous - But you must admit that has nothing to do with the statements from the early church leaders. Some of them were trained by the apostle John himself, who penned "The Revelation of Jesus".

They simply stated that it was a literal kingdom, which is obviously what John thought since he was still alive and was consulted.

The point of this thread is : When we as JW's went to doors and presented a literal kingdom point of view, as twisted as it was with all the heresies about a two-tier salvation, it was an anomaly to at least 2/3 of the Christians and totally new to the unbelievers. It resonated somewhat.

Many scriptures supported this view and it gave a false impression that the JW's were really smart.

Those blind sided by this tactic just lapped up the poison when they were further led to reject the new covenant "for the forgiveness of sins".

The reasoning was: Surely if the JW's were right about the literal kingdom, they couldn't be wrong about the new covenant not being available to everybody, right?

It was all just another Satanic misdirection, with a little truth mixed in.

It took me a long time to figure this out. It is so obvious now.

33

Few JW leader have children

by slimboyfat in

it’s been discussed before that few jw leaders, past and present, have had children.

this is in contrast with other groups, such as the mormons, whose leaders have had a lot of children.

i wonder if this has impacted jw growth.

Sea Breeze

Russell had a failed marriage.

Rutherford had a failed marriage

Knorr was not married for the first 9 years of being WT president. Then his new wife complained to other sisters that he never consummated the union.

Fred Franz never married.

WT leadership have not been what you would call "family men". They have created the greatest family killing machine ever devised. They were all weirdos.

The produced the joke book - "Family Life". How dumb can people be?

11

The Coming Global Salvation - (Not Universalism)

by Sea Breeze in

the overwhelming majority of the early church leaders (fathers) were premillennial and believed in a literal 1000 yr. kingdom.

today, 2/3 of christians are amillennial.

i do not want to imply that amilennialists, are not christian.

Sea Breeze

@AnyMous

There is not any evidence that the early congregation leaders believed, or set a date for God's Kingdom establishing in AD1025. That's ridiculous.

The early Church Fathers believed in a literal, earthly millennial reign of Christ, often referred to as chiliasm or premillennialism. Notable figures who held this view include Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Papias, Lactantius, and Commodianus. They interpreted biblical passages, particularly in Revelation, to support the idea of a future, physical kingdom established by Christ on earth.

Examples of early Church Fathers who held a premillennial view:

Justin Martyr:

He explicitly stated that he and other Christians who held correct views believed in a millennial reign of Christ on earth.

Irenaeus:

A student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John the Apostle, Irenaeus also believed in a literal millennial kingdom, emphasizing a future period of earthly blessing and peace, following the Antichrist and the second coming of Christ.

Tertullian:

He was a strong proponent of a future, earthly millennial kingdom, seeing it as a time of joy and blessing for the resurrected saints.

Papias:

His writings, though mostly lost, are known through the works of others like Irenaeus. He is known to have held a premillennial view, likely influenced by his connection to the Apostle John.

Lactantius:

He also believed in a literal, earthly millennial kingdom, emphasizing the restoration of earthly conditions to their original, pre-fall state.

Commodianus:

This North African writer around 240 AD also wrote about a literal millennium, describing the overcoming of Antichrist and the blessings received during that time.

Many early Church Fathers who held to a literal millennial view did so in opposition to Gnostic teachings, which often spiritualized or allegorized biblical texts.

They emphasized the physicality of the resurrection and the future kingdom, contrasting it with the Gnostic tendency to view the spiritual realm as superior to the physical.

While premillennialism was a dominant view in the early church, it eventually became less prevalent, particularly after the rise of Augustinian amillennialism.

Watchtower sidesteps the problem with the Millennium following the return of Jesus by making him return invisibly. Then, they claim that he also invisibly appointed the WT corporation as the visible representation of the kingdom of God on earth.

Only cults pull stuff like this.

11

The Coming Global Salvation - (Not Universalism)

by Sea Breeze in

the overwhelming majority of the early church leaders (fathers) were premillennial and believed in a literal 1000 yr. kingdom.

today, 2/3 of christians are amillennial.

i do not want to imply that amilennialists, are not christian.

Sea Breeze

Found this on Quora. It is spot on. Hopefully this topic will open some eyes that the WT org isn't just a "different Christian denomination" like many believe, even after leaving.

11

The Coming Global Salvation - (Not Universalism)

by Sea Breeze in

the overwhelming majority of the early church leaders (fathers) were premillennial and believed in a literal 1000 yr. kingdom.

today, 2/3 of christians are amillennial.

i do not want to imply that amilennialists, are not christian.

Sea Breeze

@Vidiot,

I can appreciate your perspective. I personally don't mind if anyone wants to pursue a different worldview. I certainly did myself for around 8 years after exiting the JW community. It took me several years to understand what the WT was doing. It was important to me to figure out what the WT was hiding in plain sight.

The purpose of this post is to present the premillennial view. I believe it could be useful to some. If rejected, at least that person can know that it is not just a recoil reaction from the abuses of the WT.

11

The Coming Global Salvation - (Not Universalism)

by Sea Breeze in

the overwhelming majority of the early church leaders (fathers) were premillennial and believed in a literal 1000 yr. kingdom.

today, 2/3 of christians are amillennial.

i do not want to imply that amilennialists, are not christian.

Sea Breeze

The overwhelming majority of the early church leaders (fathers) were premillennial and believed in a literal 1000 yr. kingdom. Today, 2/3 of Christians are amillennial. I do not want to imply that amilennialists, are not Christian.

Nevertheless, that view is one that rejects the notion that Jesus Christ will physically reign on the Earth for exactly one thousand years. Rather, they interpret the "thousand years" mentioned in Revelation 20 as a symbolic number and not a literal duration of time. Amillennialists hold that the millennium has already begun and is simultaneous with the current church age.

This is what lead to the success at the doors I experienced when I was a regular pioneer for Watchtower. I regularly held 8-10 bible studies per month. Most of us were just ignorant pawns and didn't realize the theological landscape we were in.

The Kingdom message was attractive to many people because they never heard about a literal kingdom at their church. When a lady pointed out to me that hundreds of millions of people already believed in a literal "God's Kingdom", I was shocked and stopped going in field service.

The Watchtower used this "conversation opener" to spread the false message that there was another salvation method other than Christ as our personal Mediator / Savior - for the "great crowd". The unique WT views on the 1.) tripartite nature of man, 2.) 1914 invisible return of Christ along with 3.) the rejection of the Rapture, further supported their end times deception that Christ as a "personal savior" was not needed and not available.

For those wanting to understand the premillennial view of the end times (which is virtually synonymous with the early congregation leaders in the first 3 centuries after Christ) , the following talk is very helpful. It identifies who the great crowd is according to historical and accurate views handed down from the apostles. It will also walk you through the general framework of literal biblical end-times theology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw3VLpd9Fm0&ab_channel=GracetoYou

7

Place of a Skull...Whose Skull?

by peacefulpete in

i'll just shoot this short comment that i found interesting.

the gospel of mark at 15:22 says: then they brought him to the place golgotha, which is translated, place of a/the skull (singular noun).. it might be surprising to learn there is no ancient record of any topographical location called "place of the skull".

so, is that because of loss of information or is it suggestive that the 'place of the skull' had more christological meaning?

Sea Breeze

Just outside of Old Jerusalem’s northern wall, near the Damascus gate, there is a rocky hill that bears the resemblance of a skull... this is the likely location the Bible refers to as Golgotha and Calvary.

141

WAR begins.

by lastmanstanding in

things are moving right along.

“israel” has gone to war with iran.. who is fooled?.

this is uncle sam, same as in ukraine.. daniel layed out clearly the events of “d day” june 6, 1944 as the “ships of kittim” would sail against the king of the north.

Sea Breeze

However, the end result will be the finish of the USA

I don't see anything in bible prophecy about the end of the USA. I don't know where you are getting your information from.

@lastmanstanding,

Are you still a Jehovah's Witness? Do you still hold that most of their views are Christian?

For those interested in prophecy regarding the region where the current conflict is:

The Fordow nuclear facility is located in modern-day Iran, which includes the ancient civilization of Elam. Elam was situated in the far west and southwest of Iran, encompassing areas that include the current location of the Fordow facility. Here is the biblical prophecy against Elam: in Jeremiah 49:

Prophecy against Elam

34 The word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet concerning Elam, at the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, saying:

35 “This is what the Lord of armies says:
‘Behold, I am going to break the bow of Elam,
The finest of their might.

36 I will bring upon Elam the four winds
From the four ends of heaven,
And will scatter them to all these winds;
And there will be no nation To which the outcasts of Elam will not go.

37 So I will shatter Elam before their enemies
And before those who seek their lives;
And I will bring disaster upon them,
Even My fierce anger,’ declares the Lord,
‘And I will send the sword after them
Until I have consumed them.

38 Then I will set My throne in Elam,
And eliminate from there the king and officials,’
Declares the Lord.

39 ‘But it will come about in the last days
That I will restore the fortunes of Elam,’”
Declares the Lord.

Here is a discussion in support that this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

If the USA deploys their bunker buster at this underground nuclear facility, it may cause a great deal of fall-out in the region prompting the inhabitants to flee. The Elam territory is separated from the rest of Iran by a mountain range, which would likely protect the rest of Iran (Persia) from the fall-out. Interestingly, Persia is listed as one of the nations that go up against Israel in a final showdown battle, but Elam is not in that particular list.

This would indeed be a rather dramatic fulfillment:

"I will bring upon Elam the four winds
From the four ends of heaven,
And will scatter them to all these winds"

We will see.

84

Zechariah 12:10 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze in

here's a question for those who still support watchtower on this forum.

why did watchtower leave out the word "me" in zech.

zechariah 12:10 reads like this: .

Sea Breeze

Well said aqwsed12345.

Thank you for unpacking that. Unsaved bible critics have been attacking orthodoxy since almost the beginning. Fortunately, the early church leaders wrote thousands of pages of Christian defense. It's plenty of info for anyone who wants to know about Christianity. Some people just cannot stand to be in a student role, they must be the teacher regardless of how unqualified they are. This is the true nature of the heretic. There is not a single word in the English language to describe the true heretic.

"Ignorant Hubris" is about as close as I have been able to get in describing Arch heretic's like JW.s. And it only applies to some of them. Most are just followers. The leaders and defenders earn the label ignorant hubris.

The problem is that heretics do not want this kind of God to rule over them. And, they will do anything to try and stop him.

141

WAR begins.

by lastmanstanding in

things are moving right along.

“israel” has gone to war with iran.. who is fooled?.

this is uncle sam, same as in ukraine.. daniel layed out clearly the events of “d day” june 6, 1944 as the “ships of kittim” would sail against the king of the north.

Sea Breeze

This does not end as you are all postulating.
China and Russia know that Iran is the buffer zone. They will not stand by and let Iran fall over dead.

No one wants Iran to "fall over dead". The sane people of the world have decided that Iran will not have nuclear weapons because their stated goal is to kill all the Jews and remove one of the nations of the earth. They are Satanically obsessed with it. They fooled around, and found out.

According to Trump this morning, the sides are already talking. Israel will NEVER again be disposed from their land.

And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God. - Amos 9: 15

(Is. 11:11-12 NASB) Then it will happen on that day that the Lord will again recover the second time with His hand the remnant of His people, who will remain, from Assyria, Egypt, Pathros, Cush, Elam, Shinar, Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And He will lift up a standard for the nations, and will assemble the banished ones of Israel, and will gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

First, this cannot refer to the regathering under Ezra and Nehemiah, because he clearly says that they will be regathered “a second time.” Isaiah was writing before the first dispersion under Nebuchadnezzar (8th century B.C.). The return from Babylonian and Assyrian exile was the “first regathering” (Is. 10:20-27; 44:26-45:8). Moreover, this cannot refer to the regathering of the Exodus under Moses, because Isaiah promised a “remnant” will be regathered. The Exodus was not a remnant –rather all of Israel was gathered.

Second, this passage states that this will be a global regathering (“from the islands of the sea… from the four corners of the earth”), rather than a local regathering.